You know, I started to write out a huge diatribe about "canning everyone" but I guess it's mostly pointless. Do we as citizens of the United States bear the responsibility for the disaster in New Orleans? Fine, I guess we do if it makes you feel better. Hell, I used gasoline and had a W sticker on my car so fine, the blood is on my hands. And fine, you can blame my choice of President for New Orleans, 9/11, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, the tsunami, high gas prices, low test scores, the heartbreak of psoriasis, etc, etc, etc, etc....do it.
As long as it makes you feel better. Because that's what is important, isn't it :-)
I think you're missing the point on this. We don't blame the president (or your choice of president) for a huricane hitting New Orleans. We blame the total incompetance of the response, which cost perhaps thousands of lives on him. We blame the crass way he continued his vacation (http://hughesforamerica.typepad.com/hughes_for_america/2005/08/august_2930_200.html) while people were dying and coping with the destruction of the storm. We blame him for seeing this hurricane coming in the forecast for a week and a half, and doing nothing to ready a response.
Likewise we don't blame Bush for the existance of Osama bin Laden and other "bad" men. In fact, we probably would allow for his errors in how he was complacent with regard to warnings if he'd admit the mistake and change patterns, but alas he hasn't (see New Orleans).
We don't blame Bush for Saddam being a bad person in Iraq. We do however have to take issue with the trillions of dollars thrown at it, considering that the WMDs he said they had never materialized. I mean, Saddam was a bad man and all, but was it really worth letting Osama free while we dealt with a non-threat, and expending money and resources (like LA national guard units) that might have helped when a real threat emerged.
Speaking of real threats, by all accounts Iran really DOES have the beginnings of nuclear capability. Too bad we're too tied in in Iraq to seriously have a say about it. Too bad we've already shown that if you don't have WMDs, you get invaded anyway, and that the only real way to keep us out is to have the WMDs and pose a real threat.
High gas prices, I won't entirely lay at the feet of Bush, but creating instability in the middle east certainly hasn't helped, and his administration is so wrapped up in Haliburton (who is better off for high gas prices) to actually want to do anything about it.
I could go on, but you could write an entire book on how poorly Bush has done as president. It'd actually be much harder to write a page of things he has legitimately succeeded at, or to find anything that he has touched that is not worse now than it was before he touched it (let alone finding anthing that is better now than before he touched it)
The fact of the matter is that Bush has been a HORRIBLE president (and that's putting it nicely). At some point, we as a nation, do have to look at the facts and call it for what it is, and stop letting the guy off. And we need those who voted for him to come around and be a part of this.
And given that the guy has been a constant string of screw ups since stepping in back in 2000, yes, the people who saw what a screwup he was for 4 years and voted for him anyway deserve to see blame too. It doesn't make us "feel better" to pass that along, nor does it specifically help anything, but those of us who sat amazed that anyone could actually vote for the man after 4 years of nothing but failure are a bit beside ourselves as to how to clue those people in and get the change in preception nessecary to DO something about it. (sigh)
The first response to any disaster is done through local and state authorities. Sure, Bush could have federalized the response through a declaration or two; but why should he when the state knows what's needed. Oh wait, they didn't or they did but didn't enact it.
NOLA has been a total clusterfuck, but for our first modern-time evacuation of over half a million people has not been "as horrible" as it could have been. Nagin "could" have forced people out on Sunday. Blanco "could" have enacted Martial Law on Sunday. Bush "could" have federalized the response on Sunday. But they didn't, and while it sucks, it's called experience, something we didn't have on August 27th.
As far as the Bush policy decisions, I'm not going to waste bandwidth arguing each point ad infinitum. You have your proof and I have mine..
"but for our first modern-time evacuation of over half a million people has not been "as horrible" as it could have been."
ummmm, methinks you might be forgetting the evacuation of the entire south side of the island of Manhattan, an evacuation that took place over a period of about eight hours and pretty much left the entire south side of the city a ghost town in short order.
Derek,
I agree with your last statement about evacuating southern Manhattan in a seemingly orderly manner. The point forgotten there is that Giuliani, for all his faults and abrasiveness, did a hell of a job coordinating these efforts "on the run." That is an inate ability, one that neither the President nor Gov. Blanco posess. I've read all the posts and comments and still come away with the same thought... We were taught as students that the United States is the greatest country in the world. Our response to a natural disater is disgusting, and yes, people need to be held accountable. FEMA, DHS, the state and local governments, should all be held under a microscope when this is all finished. Hindsight is 20/20, but things can still be learned. Decision making from the beginning was flawed. I understand the logistical nightmare of evacuating a city, but New Orleans was pretty much in the crosshairs the entire time. Yes, people didn't have transportation, the populace is poor, but putting them in the superdome? I heard that it is supposed to stand up to 200 MPH winds and all that, but seriously, the superdome- How about just moving westward? Saturday , we knew it would be bad, hell, the Weather Channel shills were all aroused by this shit. Where were the people in charge and why did it take W to ask (too late) the Governor to do something drastic? Point of fact was, they were all asleep at the controls and the people who suffered and are all still suffering are the ones who payed the price. Peoples bodies in the street for days... in America? Shameful. Complacency and the idea that it "won't happen in my lifetime" is what happened down there. Well, it happened, how do you spin that?
"ummmm, methinks you might be forgetting the evacuation of the entire south side of the island of Manhattan, an evacuation that took place over a period of about eight hours and pretty much left the entire south side of the city a ghost town in short order."
Small difference, the area evacuated during 9/11 was mostly a business district with a reasonably small amount of displaced residential homes that were reoccurpied within a few days.
In NOLA, we're talking about hundreds of thousands of people losing their homes to this the flooding. This has a larger personal scope than 9/11. Also, if you notice the people lining up to help with NOLA has taken longer than with 9/11.
Do I think it's "shameful" that we didn't evacuate everyone? No, because I am a realist. There are people still in NOLA that do not want to be rescued for a variety of personal reasons. And that's the difference between this disaster and 9/11. In 9/11, almost every civilian wanted to leave. In NOLA, most wanted to stay. And that will be the epitath for this disaster.
Oh, and if you want to talk about a comedy of errors that will play out over the next couple of days...the "forced" evac of people that don't want to leave. The military has said they will NOT help with any forced evac....should be entertaining.
I beg to differ. Bush's changes, including the creation of the DHS, put into LAW the federal role in disaster preparation and relief.
USC Title 6, Chapter 1, Subsection 1, sec 111 defines the mission of the department of homeland security:
The primary mission of the Department is to -- (D) carry out all functions of entities transferred to the Department, including by acting as a focal point regarding natural and manmade crises and emergency planning;
Sorry, you can't pawn this off as just a failure of local government. Local government failed, and they should be held up to a microscope as well. But the executive branch utterly failed in its self defined mission, as written into US law, which includes both emergency response and planning. It is just the latest glaring example, and about time the cowboy has to answer for his utter ineptness. Especially so, since this group campaigned on being the right people to respond to crisis and maintain order. A quote I read on it goes, "I think it puts into question all of the Homeland Security and Northern Command planning for the last four years, because if we can't respond faster than this to an event we saw coming across the Gulf for days, then why do we think we're prepared to respond to a nuclear or biological attack?" It's a valid point. And the telling thing about the quote is that it came from the mouth of none other than Newt Gingrich.
The sheep out there can spin it however they want, but at the end of the day, the man isn't qualified to be a 7-11 clerk. He'd have been fired in the first year when he started the day with a full cash drawer and ended it with a third mortgage on the store. It shouldn't have taken him doing nothing and letting a spilled gallon of milk sit on the floor for 3 days while people keep slipping on the spill to finally start drawing attention to his utter lack of qualification. Sadly, it seems even some STILL aren't willing to open their eyes.
#1. Obscure federal code trying to defend your position? Check.
#2. "It's also someone else's fault but really it's Bush-Hitlers fault!" Check.
#3. "George Bush is a total idiot." Double-Check.
Let me answer these in order:
#1. Let's start with the Posse Comitatus Act which restricts federal troops from performing law-enforcement duties. Since National Guard troops are under state control, the governors of Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama would decided how and where these troops would be used. In fact today, the military said they would not help the NOPD evict people from since that would be outside of their powers at this time.
Now yes, there are exepmtions to this law where there is war or a disaster (such as the code you quoted before). But in those cases, FEMA and the Federal Government as a whole defer their powers to the states who "should" make the decisions. Frankly, I'm wondering why no one has jumped on the whole "Mayor Nagin giving Oprah a Three Hour Tour" instead of helping coodinate the massive aid that is pouring in for his city. I understand the whole "showing what's really happening" but a leader "should" lead and not get caught up in PR activities unless it's needed. Your opinions of the "need" for catering to Oprah and mine probably differ, and that's OK.
#2. This is where I'm confused....you said...
"Sorry, you can't pawn this off as just a failure of local government. Local government failed, and they should be held up to a microscope as well."
Which is funny since I said about three posts earlier...
"NOLA has been a total clusterfuck"
Notice the word "total". That means everyone screwed something up. Projects as complex as a simultaneous evac, rescue, resupply, loss mitigation, repair, rebuild over a three state area tend to have things that go wrong. Period. If you really thought that FEMA and the Feds were going to sweep in on Tuesday with a magic sword and broom making things all better, well, you better reset your expectation levels now.
#3. George Bush went to Yale, and did pretty well. Last time I checked, your local 7-11 clerk only needed a HS Diploma. It's funny how people who have met Bush say that he's smarter than he lets on must be all paid operatives of Karl Rove (of which, I'm still waiting for my check in the mail).
Josh, you do have some valid points, but I think you are looking too much through the "I HATE GEORGE BUSH" lens to really see what's going on. It's easy to blame one group or person for all the problems in an organization. It's something else to realize that we all played a part in what happened, even those who didn't vote for Bush.
"The Red Cross is confirming to Garrett that it had prepositioned water, food, blankets and hygiene products for delivery to the Superdome and the Convention Center in the immediate aftermath of the hurricane, but were blocked from delivering those supplies by orders of the Louisiana state government, which did not want to attract people to the Superdome and/or Convention Center."
Just remember though, the people never really vote for anyone. We vote for someone we hope will pick who we want.
Yawn...it starts at the top, etc, etc, etc...
You know, I started to write out a huge diatribe about "canning everyone" but I guess it's mostly pointless. Do we as citizens of the United States bear the responsibility for the disaster in New Orleans? Fine, I guess we do if it makes you feel better. Hell, I used gasoline and had a W sticker on my car so fine, the blood is on my hands. And fine, you can blame my choice of President for New Orleans, 9/11, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, the tsunami, high gas prices, low test scores, the heartbreak of psoriasis, etc, etc, etc, etc....do it.
As long as it makes you feel better. Because that's what is important, isn't it :-)
Brian,
I think you're missing the point on this. We don't blame the president (or your choice of president) for a huricane hitting New Orleans. We blame the total incompetance of the response, which cost perhaps thousands of lives on him. We blame the crass way he continued his vacation (http://hughesforamerica.typepad.com/hughes_for_america/2005/08/august_2930_200.html) while people were dying and coping with the destruction of the storm. We blame him for seeing this hurricane coming in the forecast for a week and a half, and doing nothing to ready a response.
Likewise we don't blame Bush for the existance of Osama bin Laden and other "bad" men. In fact, we probably would allow for his errors in how he was complacent with regard to warnings if he'd admit the mistake and change patterns, but alas he hasn't (see New Orleans).
We don't blame Bush for Saddam being a bad person in Iraq. We do however have to take issue with the trillions of dollars thrown at it, considering that the WMDs he said they had never materialized. I mean, Saddam was a bad man and all, but was it really worth letting Osama free while we dealt with a non-threat, and expending money and resources (like LA national guard units) that might have helped when a real threat emerged.
Speaking of real threats, by all accounts Iran really DOES have the beginnings of nuclear capability. Too bad we're too tied in in Iraq to seriously have a say about it. Too bad we've already shown that if you don't have WMDs, you get invaded anyway, and that the only real way to keep us out is to have the WMDs and pose a real threat.
High gas prices, I won't entirely lay at the feet of Bush, but creating instability in the middle east certainly hasn't helped, and his administration is so wrapped up in Haliburton (who is better off for high gas prices) to actually want to do anything about it.
I could go on, but you could write an entire book on how poorly Bush has done as president. It'd actually be much harder to write a page of things he has legitimately succeeded at, or to find anything that he has touched that is not worse now than it was before he touched it (let alone finding anthing that is better now than before he touched it)
The fact of the matter is that Bush has been a HORRIBLE president (and that's putting it nicely). At some point, we as a nation, do have to look at the facts and call it for what it is, and stop letting the guy off. And we need those who voted for him to come around and be a part of this.
And given that the guy has been a constant string of screw ups since stepping in back in 2000, yes, the people who saw what a screwup he was for 4 years and voted for him anyway deserve to see blame too. It doesn't make us "feel better" to pass that along, nor does it specifically help anything, but those of us who sat amazed that anyone could actually vote for the man after 4 years of nothing but failure are a bit beside ourselves as to how to clue those people in and get the change in preception nessecary to DO something about it. (sigh)
Josh, where do I begin....
The first response to any disaster is done through local and state authorities. Sure, Bush could have federalized the response through a declaration or two; but why should he when the state knows what's needed. Oh wait, they didn't or they did but didn't enact it.
NOLA has been a total clusterfuck, but for our first modern-time evacuation of over half a million people has not been "as horrible" as it could have been. Nagin "could" have forced people out on Sunday. Blanco "could" have enacted Martial Law on Sunday. Bush "could" have federalized the response on Sunday. But they didn't, and while it sucks, it's called experience, something we didn't have on August 27th.
As far as the Bush policy decisions, I'm not going to waste bandwidth arguing each point ad infinitum. You have your proof and I have mine..
"but for our first modern-time evacuation of over half a million people has not been "as horrible" as it could have been."
ummmm, methinks you might be forgetting the evacuation of the entire south side of the island of Manhattan, an evacuation that took place over a period of about eight hours and pretty much left the entire south side of the city a ghost town in short order.
Derek,
I agree with your last statement about evacuating southern Manhattan in a seemingly orderly manner. The point forgotten there is that Giuliani, for all his faults and abrasiveness, did a hell of a job coordinating these efforts "on the run." That is an inate ability, one that neither the President nor Gov. Blanco posess. I've read all the posts and comments and still come away with the same thought... We were taught as students that the United States is the greatest country in the world. Our response to a natural disater is disgusting, and yes, people need to be held accountable. FEMA, DHS, the state and local governments, should all be held under a microscope when this is all finished. Hindsight is 20/20, but things can still be learned. Decision making from the beginning was flawed. I understand the logistical nightmare of evacuating a city, but New Orleans was pretty much in the crosshairs the entire time. Yes, people didn't have transportation, the populace is poor, but putting them in the superdome? I heard that it is supposed to stand up to 200 MPH winds and all that, but seriously, the superdome- How about just moving westward? Saturday , we knew it would be bad, hell, the Weather Channel shills were all aroused by this shit. Where were the people in charge and why did it take W to ask (too late) the Governor to do something drastic? Point of fact was, they were all asleep at the controls and the people who suffered and are all still suffering are the ones who payed the price. Peoples bodies in the street for days... in America? Shameful. Complacency and the idea that it "won't happen in my lifetime" is what happened down there. Well, it happened, how do you spin that?
"ummmm, methinks you might be forgetting the evacuation of the entire south side of the island of Manhattan, an evacuation that took place over a period of about eight hours and pretty much left the entire south side of the city a ghost town in short order."
Small difference, the area evacuated during 9/11 was mostly a business district with a reasonably small amount of displaced residential homes that were reoccurpied within a few days.
In NOLA, we're talking about hundreds of thousands of people losing their homes to this the flooding. This has a larger personal scope than 9/11. Also, if you notice the people lining up to help with NOLA has taken longer than with 9/11.
Do I think it's "shameful" that we didn't evacuate everyone? No, because I am a realist. There are people still in NOLA that do not want to be rescued for a variety of personal reasons. And that's the difference between this disaster and 9/11. In 9/11, almost every civilian wanted to leave. In NOLA, most wanted to stay. And that will be the epitath for this disaster.
Oh, and if you want to talk about a comedy of errors that will play out over the next couple of days...the "forced" evac of people that don't want to leave. The military has said they will NOT help with any forced evac....should be entertaining.
Brian,
I beg to differ. Bush's changes, including the creation of the DHS, put into LAW the federal role in disaster preparation and relief.
USC Title 6, Chapter 1, Subsection 1, sec 111 defines the mission of the department of homeland security:
The primary mission of the Department is to -- (D) carry out all functions of entities transferred to the Department, including by acting as a focal point regarding natural and manmade crises and emergency planning;
Sorry, you can't pawn this off as just a failure of local government. Local government failed, and they should be held up to a microscope as well. But the executive branch utterly failed in its self defined mission, as written into US law, which includes both emergency response and planning. It is just the latest glaring example, and about time the cowboy has to answer for his utter ineptness. Especially so, since this group campaigned on being the right people to respond to crisis and maintain order. A quote I read on it goes, "I think it puts into question all of the Homeland Security and Northern Command planning for the last four years, because if we can't respond faster than this to an event we saw coming across the Gulf for days, then why do we think we're prepared to respond to a nuclear or biological attack?" It's a valid point. And the telling thing about the quote is that it came from the mouth of none other than Newt Gingrich.
The sheep out there can spin it however they want, but at the end of the day, the man isn't qualified to be a 7-11 clerk. He'd have been fired in the first year when he started the day with a full cash drawer and ended it with a third mortgage on the store. It shouldn't have taken him doing nothing and letting a spilled gallon of milk sit on the floor for 3 days while people keep slipping on the spill to finally start drawing attention to his utter lack of qualification. Sadly, it seems even some STILL aren't willing to open their eyes.
Let's see now Josh...
#1. Obscure federal code trying to defend your position? Check.
#2. "It's also someone else's fault but really it's Bush-Hitlers fault!" Check.
#3. "George Bush is a total idiot." Double-Check.
Let me answer these in order:
#1. Let's start with the Posse Comitatus Act which restricts federal troops from performing law-enforcement duties. Since National Guard troops are under state control, the governors of Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama would decided how and where these troops would be used. In fact today, the military said they would not help the NOPD evict people from since that would be outside of their powers at this time.
Now yes, there are exepmtions to this law where there is war or a disaster (such as the code you quoted before). But in those cases, FEMA and the Federal Government as a whole defer their powers to the states who "should" make the decisions. Frankly, I'm wondering why no one has jumped on the whole "Mayor Nagin giving Oprah a Three Hour Tour" instead of helping coodinate the massive aid that is pouring in for his city. I understand the whole "showing what's really happening" but a leader "should" lead and not get caught up in PR activities unless it's needed. Your opinions of the "need" for catering to Oprah and mine probably differ, and that's OK.
#2. This is where I'm confused....you said...
"Sorry, you can't pawn this off as just a failure of local government. Local government failed, and they should be held up to a microscope as well."
Which is funny since I said about three posts earlier...
"NOLA has been a total clusterfuck"
Notice the word "total". That means everyone screwed something up. Projects as complex as a simultaneous evac, rescue, resupply, loss mitigation, repair, rebuild over a three state area tend to have things that go wrong. Period. If you really thought that FEMA and the Feds were going to sweep in on Tuesday with a magic sword and broom making things all better, well, you better reset your expectation levels now.
#3. George Bush went to Yale, and did pretty well. Last time I checked, your local 7-11 clerk only needed a HS Diploma. It's funny how people who have met Bush say that he's smarter than he lets on must be all paid operatives of Karl Rove (of which, I'm still waiting for my check in the mail).
Josh, you do have some valid points, but I think you are looking too much through the "I HATE GEORGE BUSH" lens to really see what's going on. It's easy to blame one group or person for all the problems in an organization. It's something else to realize that we all played a part in what happened, even those who didn't vote for Bush.
Oh and BTW, this might be rumor, but I don't think Hugh would publish it without having some basis in fact...
http://hughhewitt.com/archives/2005/09/04-week/index.php#a000211
"The Red Cross is confirming to Garrett that it had prepositioned water, food, blankets and hygiene products for delivery to the Superdome and the Convention Center in the immediate aftermath of the hurricane, but were blocked from delivering those supplies by orders of the Louisiana state government, which did not want to attract people to the Superdome and/or Convention Center."